Rashida Jones and Will McCormack have been touring in promotion of the film they wrote together, Celeste and Jesse Forever. It’s about a breakup between two people better suited as friends than lovers. Jones and McCormack, as it happens, are two people better suited as friends than lovers. (They had dated in the past, but broke up.) The film is funny and thoughtful (as well as painful). Jones and McCormack, as it turns out, are also funny and thoughtful. Both act in the film: Jones is the female lead, playing opposite Andy Samberg, as a high powered and ambitious expert on trends and McCormack plays Skillz, a pot smoking couch philosopher. We talked about honesty, success and fame and managed to work in a bit about the painful part as well.
Keyframe: You are up front about the fact that you dated. Is it to imply that the film is in some way nonfictional, that it is a hybrid of fiction and nonfiction?
Rashida Jones: It is a hybrid. But we borrowed and stole things from our own lives and from friends’ and relatives’ lives. It’s definitely a mash up.
Will McCormack: We didn’t date long enough or leave enough of an impact on each other to warrant a full screenplay.
Jones: That would be such a boring screenplay. Our three weeks dating…
McCormack: Yeah. It would consist of drinking, making out—
Jones: Egg salad sandwiches.
McCormack: Watching Waiting for Guffman 70 times.
McCormack: But, definitely the friendship elements are all us.
Jones: And, the way they talk to each other comes out of our dynamic.
Keyframe: (To McCormack) So, when you were getting the film into production, did you consider playing Jesse yourself?
McCormack: Maybe for a millisecond, but not really. I’m a character actor. It’s what I’ve always wanted to be. It’s what I gravitate towards. My favorite actors are character actors, and parts like Skillz in the movie. Also, Andy [Samberg] was a natural choice. I enjoyed watching him just be solid in the role. He did it simply and honestly and with nuance. And he and Rashida have known each other for awhile, so they have a built in chemistry the same way that she and I do. It felt like the right choice
Keyframe: Watching the movie it feels that Rashida and Andy have a friendship beyond the screen.
Jones: We hate each other. I just wanted to make sure I said that.
Keyframe: Something I admire about the film is the balance between the genuine sadness of a breakup—it’s really pretty dark in that way—and the humor of the situation. It seems delicate in that way. Were there films that you looked to for inspiration to help strike that balance?
McCormack: There’s definitely a few important pictures out there for us.
Jones: Annie Hall. Broadcast News.
McCormack: Husbands and Wives.
Jones: When Harry Met Sally. Tone is such a tough thing, especially when you’re dealing with romance. You have to sell the relationship to the audience. You also have to help them to trust you. I think if you turn a corner too quickly it will be too jarring. It was important to us to be honest about the feeling and the heartache of a breakup. We knew there was a chance that it would be alienating to go as deep and as dark as we wanted to go with that journey. So, we tried our best to find levity where we could so you didn’t feel like you were getting hammered over the head…. And, also, it is a break up and a broken heart. Nobody died. So, it’s all right to laugh through it a little bit.
McCormack: And, while it’s true that no one dies and it’s not the end of the world, breakups at their core are really very painful. So, we wanted to be as honest as we could about what that means to endure that… It sucks. It hurts. You feel like you are gonna die. But, for me, the moment when I feel like I am getting over it is when I am able to laugh about it a little bit. So, we’re trying to thread those two feelings together, and I thought the director [Lee Toland Krieger] did a really good job with the script. We wrote it that way because both of our lives have been both really painful and really funny in those moments, so I think that Lee did a nice job with a sort of a tricky tone.
Tone is such a tough thing, especially when you’re dealing with romance. You have to sell the relationship to the audience. You also have to help them to trust you. I think if you turn a corner too quickly it will be too jarring. It was important to us to be honest about the feeling and the heartache of a breakup.
Keyframe: To that end, how was it working with a director on this material that you are so familiar with? You wrote it and then are both in it, so you are on set all the time. Did you have moments where you had to say, ‘Hey, this isn’t what we meant,’ or any kinds of negotiations like that?
Jones: He had a lot of respect for what we wrote, and he wanted to shoot what we wrote. I think it would be hard for anybody to come into this thing that we had been trying to make for so long, and he did a wonderful job in service of the material and he also had a very specific point of view and an aesthetic. Lee is smart and is a keen observer and is emotionally intelligent. So, he was able to navigate the waters of the emotions, and for us that was the most important part, because we felt the comedy wouldn’t play unless we had that.
Keyframe: So in setting out to create this honest portrayal of feelings you have both had did you learn anything? Did it change your minds about anything you had gone through?
Jones: Well, I have to be right about everything. It’s definitely a quality that I noticed I have. And, when you’re hurting, there’s no ‘right.’ You can’t ‘right’ your way out of hurting. I don’t mean ‘write.’ I mean you can’t be right and therefore not feel pain. And, in the movie I say to Skillz, ‘How can he do this to me?’ And, it’s that feeling that this person is consciously hurting you. But, the truth is they’re not. Nobody’s trying to intentionally hurt you. It just hurts to move past things. And, I think that there’s a certain level of acceptance that I’ve grown into and it sucks, but I feel like it’s part of becoming an adult. But, I think: Right, if you’re not meant to be together, it’s going to hurt going through the process of letting go, but you’re going to feel really good about it later when you realize it wasn’t right for you.
Keyframe: Yes, and it’s not necessarily about someone’s fault.
Jones: No, it’s no one’s fault. You don’t have to be right about a breakup.
Keyframe: And, so you’re sitting there writing this together and you were learning that during the process?
Jones: Yes. Unfortunately. Perhaps annoying, but yes.
McCormack: Also, making a movie is so hard, just actually getting to the finish line, that you learn to be accepting and to roll with it. My personal issue in life is that I am very hard on myself. So, for me it’s about accepting my own limitations and not being an impediment to my own possibilities or future. It’s about allowing things to happen. So, for me I learned about acceptance.
Jones: You kind of have to when you’re making a movie, because there’s a lot of starts and stops.
McCormack: There’s a new crisis every day. There’s no money. We can’t get the music cleared.
Jones: The dates don’t work with the actors.
McCormack: The poster. There’s something every single day. So, you just sort of learn how to roll with it.
Keyframe: The idea that you have this project and are pretty well known, especially Rashida, but that you might not be able to get financing for the film might be difficult for some people to comprehend.
Jones: (Laughs.) Yes. I know.
McCormack: It was impossible.
Keyframe: How long have you been trying to get this made?
Jones: We finished writing it in November of 2008. So it’s been about four years. But, I think it’s typical for the industry and it also a sign of the economy. And, with this particular story, we didn’t write a down-the-middle-of-the-line romantic comedy. And, I think it makes it hard for people to bet their cash on it, because they can’t market it in a certain way. They can’t immediately depend on a certain audience to go see it. I hope that every one goes and sees it of course, but I think a very specific type of person has immediate interest in it. So, I get why it took as long as it did.
McCormack: Yes, the film is not black and white. It’s complicated and, hopefully, complex.
Jones: It’s kind of a comedy and kind of not a comedy. And, we’re comic actors in a sense, Andy and I. So, there’s an expectation about what we bring in a movie and it’s not only that. So, that can be confusing also.
But, it also has to do with the timing. We sold the movie to a mini-major studio and they folded a month later. Then we sold it to someone else and they folded. And, then we tried to set it up like four other times independently. So, it was partially to do with the business and partially to do with the material.
McCormack: We’re not alone. Anyone I know who has gotten an indie film made are just like ‘Oh my God, let me tell you…’ It’s hard for everyone. It’s just that I don’t think that we knew.
Jones: Yeah. We sold it in 36 hours originally when we finished, and we were like, ‘This is gonna be great! This is gonna be easy!’
McCormack: And, in Variety two weeks later places were just getting, what do they call it, ‘shuttered?’
Jones: Is that what they say?
McCormack: That’s like the Variety lingo.
Jones: It is? Like ‘skein,’ ‘helmer’—‘shuttered.’
Keyframe: Or when someone’s ‘ankles’ a project.
Jones: What’s that?
Keyframe: They walk away. They ankle it.
Jones: Someone ankles a project? I don’t like that at all. It sounds like some kind of porn or fetish thing. Doesn’t it?
Keyframe: It could be. (Pause in general consideration of ankling.)
McCormack: Also, making a movie is so hard, just actually getting to the finish line, that you learn to be accepting and to roll with it. My personal issue in life is that I am very hard on myself. So, for me it’s about accepting my own limitations and not being an impediment to my own possibilities or future. It’s about allowing things to happen. So, for me I learned about acceptance.
Jones: You kind of have to when you’re making a movie, because there’s a lot of starts and stops.
McCormack: There’s a new crisis every day. There’s no money. We can’t get the music cleared.
Jones: The dates don’t work with the actors.
McCormack: The poster. There’s something every single day. So, you just sort of learn how to roll with it.
Keyframe: So, back to this topic of nonfiction, in the film there is the character Riley. Is she based on anyone real?
McCormack: It’s a composite, a mashup.
Jones: Kesha, Miley Cyrus, Taylor Swift, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera and then somebody else who doesn’t exist yet.
Keyframe: (To Rashida) I would imagine that in your childhood you would have had a good deal of direct contact with fame because of your family. And, Riley seems to be almost a prisoner of her fame. She’s not able to be the person that she could or would be maybe if she weren’t famous.
Jones: Well, yeah, I definitely have some judgments about fame. I know that from the outside some people are obsessed with celebrity and think it’s glamorous. But, I’ve just seen people fail at life because they’re famous. And retreat. Or lose their minds. Or…
McCormack: Go bankrupt.
Jones: It’s just so hard to maintain any real quality of life for a very famous person. But, I think this character, Riley, in particular as a foil for Celeste, who has so much judgment about what kind of person Riley would be like—and I think that’s true in the larger scope of the world where people will say about famous people, ‘That’s who you are! I know what you are,’ and they dismiss them. But, the truth is that Riley had a lot more to offer than that. And, that was a big lesson for Celeste to learn. Still, Riley’s road is going to be a long and hard one. And, I think that’s pretty clear in the movie.
And, I think that the way, for example, that Justin Bieber is followed to the movies with his girlfriend by grown ass men with cameras is like, ‘Get a life, everybody.’ I mean, what are we doing? Yes, he’s talented or whatever, but why does that mean that we are invested in where he’s going to the movies or on weekends?
Keyframe: (To Will) And, now you’re going to become more famous, right?
McCormack: I am? (Laughing.)
Keyframe: The reason I’m asking is that most people just have no idea what that’s like—to be known. And some wonder about it. For instance, can you actually control what people think about you at all? Do you even want to? What are some of the strategies for that?
McCormack: I don’t know. I don’t think I’ll ever have that big of a problem with it. There are some people who are good at handling fame and others who are not. I mean, I think it’s good to promote your projects and, listen, it’s a game and you have to play it a little. I think it’s good to participate, but it’s also good to maintain privacy and know that you can negotiate doing both. But, I know that it can be hard, and I’ve seen some people be really successful at it, but….
Jones: It’s its own skill, and it has nothing to do with the reason that you were originally doing the thing that you were doing that got you famous. It has nothing to do with acting. At all. It’s its own thing. It’s the business part of it. And, also some of it’s controllable and some of it is not. And, if you set out to control how other people feel about you, you are going to be so tired, and you’re going to hate yourself and you’ll be soulless. You can’t control what people think, especially now that you’re so inundated with information—about yourself!
McCormack: I got into all of this just because I had a passionate love affair with plays and then movies. So, I try to reconnect to that every day. I mean maybe it will get harder as I get older. Hopefully it will in some ways, because that would mean that I am working a lot and I’ll forget. If I can keep going back to why I did this in the first place which is total blinded love for all of this, you know ‘Movies and plays changed my life, and I want to be near them in any way possible,’ If I can just get back to that, then I think I’ll be good, and everything else will or won’t happen. So, it seems to me that reconnecting all the time to why we’re doing this in the first place is important.
Jones: Fame was the reason that I didn’t want to do this. It was a deterrent, because I feel like it’s so destructive. I feel lucky right now, because I am at a point in my career where I can work, people know who I am, but it’s not an impediment to living my life.
Keyframe: You’re not being swarmed on the street.
Jones: Right. But, it is a very weird thing that has happened to me in the past year where it used to be that once in a while I would get recognized, and now it’s like, I’m on guard when I’m not in my house, and it usually happens that I get recognized at some point when I am out. That’s a really weird feeling, where you feel that someone’s going to recognize you wherever you are always. I mean, how weird! And, now when I leave my house, and I’m going somewhere alone, I think about it. And, I think about whether I actually want to do that. Because I can be a sensitive person, and I will feel the impact of people knowing that I’m there. And, I sometimes make decisions based on that. Sadly. But, it’s just the reality of it.
Keyframe: Was there anything that you wish I would have asked?
McCormack: That’s the best question!
Keyframe: I’m sure it happens where you are just asked the same questions over and over.
McCormack: You know, no. I think we’re most flattered that people watch our movie and then we have real conversations with them about what it was like.
Jones: And what their relationships were like and how they related to this movie or not.
McCormack: And, what success means or what we think it means, and whether the movie does well or not. Of course we want a ton of people to see it, but already it’s been rewarding to talk to people and have real discourse about what it means to try to get through a breakup. So, I have to remember that. Whether it does great or not, we’ve already had awesome conversations with people about it. So that feels really good, and I want to remember that just in case this movie doesn’t make any money.
Jones: I’m going to remind you of that.
